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 Home > Opinion > Story

Published - Sunday, December 02, 2007

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Column: America's Christian heritage slipping away

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America, a Christian nation or not?

I consider myself a Christian conservative, and I have many questions about both parties, Democrat and Republican. These are my personal opinions, and I’m looking for feedback from everyone interested in giving your views.

Christmas is just around the corner. I’ve been listening and watching how retailers are handling it. Many, such as K-Mart, Kohl’s and others want to be politically correct by being careful not to use the word “Christmas” in their ads or flyers describing their Christmas items, trees and all. Ridiculous!

I have many discussions with friends, neighbors and relatives about all these issues going on in our country today. These are some of the things I hear: I just don’t want to get involved, or why fight it, they’re going to get their way anyhow, we might as well get used to it. I don’t believe that.

You hear this phrase used quite often anymore. “What would Jesus do?” I rather doubt he’d do nothing or say nothing about what’s going on in the world we live in today.

Some have said, “I’ve worked for a union company all my life, so I’ve got to vote Democrat”; others have said, “I’ve been a Democrat all my life, so I vote Democrat.”

When I question some of these people on issues of abortion, gay rights, the Ten Commandments, prayer in school, they usually give conservative answers, so which is it? Are they making uninformed decisions, or what? They all say they believe God created heaven and earth, Adam and Eve, yet they vote for these liberal issues when they vote for a liberal Democrat or liberal Republican.

“Moveon.org” is a radical left-wing Democrat organization which in my opinion has hi-jacked the Democratic party with its altruistic views and money to burn. If a Democrat congressman like Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller don’t agree with their liberal agenda, they trash them.

The ALCU, an atheist organization, and the Civil Liberties Union profess freedom of speech. Is this just for a select party or group, or what?

Liberal judges, and believe me, they’re not Republicans, making all sorts of rulings against creationism being discussed in public schools, Ted Kennedy calling parts of the Bible hate speech because it doesn’t condone homosexuality, so what’s your interpretation of free speech?

On all the issues, I feel our Constitution, 1st Amendment rights, Separation of Church and State are being so warped out of shape to mean whatever they want it to mean that we’re just going to be a nation of chaos pretty soon. What do you think?

All these cultural issues are hashed over on television. Many are written about in the newspapers, and many editorials are on both sides of all these issues.

My opinion is: unless conservatives, churches and our conservative congressmen start taking a more active role by standing up, speaking out and fighting back, this great country of ours is really going to get messy. The least I think we can do is support many of the good conservative organizations out there beating the bushes fighting for our conservative survival. It’s a tough fight.

I saw a report on TV where 90 percent plus college faculty are liberal. So we have many professors such as Ward Churchill at Colorado University and Kevin Barrett at the Wisconsin University teaching kids liberalism, and boy are they radical. I don’t know what type of government they support, but I get the feeling they don’t support America or our democratic system of government.

I’m lucky, I guess, to have grown up in the 40s and 50s. Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, even Halloween, were all scandal free and celebrated throughout America the way I feel was the right way, and I feel we were all more in harmony with the way our founding fathers had in mind, the way they intended it to be.

I’d love to hear your views. Don’t be scared of what your neighbor, friend or relative might say. It’s a free country yet, so if you have any thoughts, let’s hear ’em.

Ron Lee is a resident of Tomah.
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mb wrote on Feb 19, 2008 1:02 PM:

" "They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point"

-Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

Karl Marx came much later--it is lazy and ignorant to label the seperation of church and state a communist idea. "

Gregory wrote on Dec 17, 2007 9:58 AM:

" All you narrow binded bigots who call yourselves followers of Jesus Christ or Christian have confirmed the wiseness of my choice to abandon Christianity many years ago and become secular. I am not raising my children on the fairy tales of virgin births and people rising from the dead after being brutally murdered among other things. So what is with this war on Christmas nonsense anyway? It is an old pagan tradition. Winter Solstice anyone? America a Christian nation? Don't include me in your theocracy. Something to think about. In 100 years, your Christian religion as it exists today will be part of history along with the worshippers of Zeus and Mithra. As for myself, I don't need Jesus for salvation. "

To Moderate Republican wrote on Dec 16, 2007 9:39 PM:

" you say: "Our forefathers founded this country on the basis of freedom from religious persecution. I think the new phrase "freedom from religion" means we should have the right not to have others' religions thrown in our faces, at least by the government." I say: Our forefathers founded this country on the basis of Freedom OF Religion. Which means exactly as it was written over 200 years ago. Our Government can not establish a church. Freedom OF Religion simply means, and always has, that You as an individual living in this great country have the right to practice your beliefs anywhere you want as long as it doesnt kill or mame people. Yet some not too foward thinking people want to totally ignore our rights to freedom of expression (because they may not like what they hear) and want to turn out society into a marxist regime (Seperation of church and state is not to be found anywhere in the constitution, the bill of rights, or any other governmental documents that directly deal with rights of the people.) Seperation of Church and state is found in the communist manifesto. Things that get me going is seeing people like you that are trying to change the way our country is and trying to introduce your socialists ways into our government. I look on this as a threat to our great country. "

Evolution is a theory wrote on Dec 16, 2007 9:26 PM:

" Evolution is a theory. Creationism is a theory. I don't think either of them, being that they are both just theories, should be taught in school. Niether of them can be proven as the one absolute answer. Science that is taught in schools should be geared more towards facts and not theories. What do you have to say about that? "

Moderate Republican wrote on Dec 12, 2007 12:20 PM:

" Yes, I am a Republican. No, I am not conservative. I believe in the basic priciples of the Republican party, such as low taxes and a balanced budget and minimal interference in people's personal lives. However, I am pro-choice, pro-separation of church and state, and even pro-nuclear power, among other things. I think our party is headed in the wrong direction from which it was intended. Lately it feels like they have been catering to the Religious Right. (See www.mypartytoo.com.) There are only two things that really get my blood boiling. The first is people who don't "believe" (I hate using that word in this context) in evolution. If they keep their beliefs to theselves, fine, but the science classroom is no place for a philosophical debate. And worse, if the President himself can't support evolution, what will that do to science in this country? (A great book on the subject is "The Republican War on Science." It's scary.) The other thing I can't stand is Christians who think that, just because they constitute the majority of the country, they should get their way. We are a nation of (mostly) Christians, we are not a Christian nation. Our forefathers founded this country on the basis of freedom from religious persecution. I think the new phrase "freedom from religion" means we should have the right not to have others' religions thrown in our faces, at least by the government. Yes, I think we should revert the Pledge of Allegiance back to its original form, and even take "In God We Trust" off our money. And if I wanted my kids praying in school, I'd send them to Catholic school. Which brings me to the issue of Christmas. I have no problem with Christmas. I am not Christian anymore, but I know that Christmas is an important holiday, both for religious and secular reasons. It's a great time to spend with family, and who couldn't use an excuse not to go to work? I have no problem with retailers marketing to the Christmas crowd. 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas - religiously or secularly. You'd be crazy not to take advantage of that in marketing. The problem is the other 30 million Americans who don't celebrate Christmas (and also many who do, myself included) feel that it's been way overblown. Seriously, Christmas started November 1st this year. It's ridiculous. I just want a nice, quiet holiday, and I don't want Christmas shoved down my throat. It really takes away from the meaning of the season. Whatever holiday you celebrate, may it be a happy one. "

waste301 wrote on Dec 12, 2007 8:01 AM:

" And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.... error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.... I deem the essential principles of our government.... Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; ... freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected. -- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801 So feel free to worship home ever you want at your house or your church. You have every right to these things. If you wish to have a public religious display - apply for a permit. An atheist can do the same thing and put up a sign about atheism, and you shouldn't be offended. A corporation is am individual, in the legal sense - it has every right to decide to say Merry Christmas or not, for whatever reason. If you have a problem with it shop elsewhere. Standing on someone else's lawn and shouting that you are being persecuted because they answer their door with "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" just makes you look like an idiot. "

to : Where does Jesus tell us to celebrate his birthday wrote on Dec 7, 2007 8:48 PM:

" Celebrating JESUS's birthday began on the night he was born. Wisemen came bearing GIFTS. "

to MagickMom - Freedom of Religion (not from) wrote on Dec 7, 2007 8:22 AM:

" Nowhere in any of our founding declarations has anyone ever penned Freedom from religion. I see that certain people like to twist things around to be interpreted in a way that they seem fits their beliefs. The first amendment gives everyone the right to proclaim their beliefs publicly be they pagan, christian, jew, morman, jehovah witness, etc. Do you want your government telling you that you can not practice what you believe in? When you attack one certain religion, doesn't it make those that believe in that religion look like martyrs? You know that every time that someone attacks christianity it just makes it look as if prophecy is being fulfilled? Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. Does it matter when it is celebrated? Christmas used to be celebrated in January until there was a change in calenders and happened to move into the month of December. Just because it falls close (not on) a pagan holiday (Dec 21) has nothing to do with stealing a celebration from any other religion. I am a Christian, I do not put up a tree, since I see no reason to. I don't hang up lights (a waste of precious energy as far as I am concerned) and has nothing to do with my beliefs. I may give presents and take the opportunity at that time to tell people of the greatest gift that was ever given to all of mankind, The Son of God. Jesus Christ. "

Re: Chris King (the Law is STILL in effect...no ham, seafood, or mixed-fiber clothing for you!) wrote on Dec 7, 2007 4:46 AM:

" Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." UNLESS, OF COURSE, THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS ITSELF. WHICH, OF COURSE, YOU JUST KNOW THAT COULDN'T BE TRUE...OR COULD IT?? "

Where does Jesus tell us to celebrate his birthday wrote on Dec 6, 2007 10:48 PM:

" Christopher Blackwell wrote Ron Lee where does Jesus say to celebrate his birthday? Christian history shows that the Catholic Church chose to make use of a Pagan holiday, long established. In fact one of the first things that Protestants did was ban the celebration of Christmas in England and Scotland as being to popish and too Pagan. Our own Puritans outlawed Christmas and punished anyone caught taking time off of work for celebrating this unChristian holliday. So Christmas is nothing but the old Pagan holy day to celebrate the Winter Solstices celebrated by early Christianity's greatest Pagan rival, Mithrasism. The Winter Solstice is the reason for the season, is this what you want to celebrate. The secular Christmas season started up in the 1840s, but was not a major holiday in England or the United States before that time, once since the Catholic Church was pushed ut of England and England became Protestant. "

Chris King wrote on Dec 6, 2007 9:59 AM:

" David Powell...Not to give a theology lesson (as if I'm worthy of such,) but it is imperative that you do not simply pick and chose various scriptures, and then use them completely out of context. Several of the scriptures also were specifically addressed to the children of Isreal, and other passages were referring to God's will for one nation to smite another for their wicked ways, aka a "just war." Also, you quoted Old Testament scripture. It is important to remember that the Law is given to define what sin is, and the punishments set forth in Old Testament Law is no longer appropriate due to Jesus' atoning death on the cross. Jesus took our punishment for the transgression of the law. Therefore, anyone that would chose to take the law into their own hands would be doing so with complete disregard to Jesus' work on the cross! In fact, those who believe in Jesus and His deity are justified before God, and will avoid their just punishments. However, those who fail to believe will meet the punishment for the transgression of the law, ON JUDGMENT DAY, ACCORDING TO GOD'S WILL, NOT MAN'S WILL. Finally, in regards to your same religion comments...Simply foolish! Muslims and Jews deny the deity of Christ. Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus Christ was God in a human form. Fully man and fully God. If you can find me one Muslim or Jew that agrees with that statement, then you would have a Muslim or Jew that is actually a misguided Christian. Also, it may be helpful to look into the beginning of Islam and the idea that Muhammud was attempting to convert people in the Arabic world from a poly-theistic worldview to a mono-theistic one. "

Christendom wrote on Dec 6, 2007 8:18 AM:

" In the middle ages there was a blending of Germanic religous traditions, christianity and Roman traditions.From this we get xmas, when we celebrate it, and many of the pagan rituals associated with it. Same is true for Easter. The structure of the christian( Catholic) church is based on the old Roman imerial system( pope is roughly equal to the emperor etc). All this posturung of the neofundamentalists and claims about attacks on Christians and xmas are a joke. "

friend wrote on Dec 5, 2007 8:16 PM:

" Much has been said regarding how this great country of ours was formed and developed. Many say it is Christian, many say it wasn't. We need to remember that at the time in space our founding fathers lived they were pressured by England to pay taxes for the upkeep of the Church of England which still occurs and whose actual head and protector is the monarchy. With this in mind, they developed the concept that the church should not be in a position to receive tax revenue from the state. The individual is free to tithe and gift money to the church of their desire. The church does not get into the making of a monarchy or a ratifying who runs the government. Government on the other hand does not get into telling individuals how to believe in God in any of the supreme beings many persona's. It does not collect money for a predominate national church, which you may not belong to but would have to pay into. This is the division of church and state. It allows for personal beliefs not the beliefs of the state or of one denomination. Yes, life was simpler in the 40's and 50's. Many areas didn't have electricity, most didn't know what they know now as far as being educated and no technology that allows for this format of communications. It was easier to comprehend "religion" then. We have created the world that we live in now and we need to understand that all the symbols of Christmas have been shared with other religious groups for an even longer timespan. Anyway, Christmas was an easy way to convert pagans to a festival that was similar to one they already celebrated. "

Fundamentalist "Christians" terrorizes a Jew That Dared to Fight Back wrote on Dec 5, 2007 8:05 PM:

" http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2007/11/anti-crusader-mikey-weinstein.html (At Mikey Weinstein's home in the suburbs of Albuquerque, the picture window in the living room has been twice shot out. Sometimes Weinstein opens his front door to find dead animals on his porch, feces smeared on his walls, or slashes in his tires. Men have called to threaten his daughter, women to chant rhymes about shooting him in the head, small children to inform him that he will burn in hell. To his critics, he says, "Take a number, pack a picnic lunch, and stand in line." He's not going anywhere, and neither is his 5'6" ex-Marine security guard, Shorty.). Yes, indeed. Fundamentalists of any religion are capable of all sorts of horrors. "

http://www.rightremedy.org/tracts/7 wrote on Dec 5, 2007 7:57 PM:

" The phrase "SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH AND STATE" is nowhere found in the U.S. Constitution (however it is found in Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto!) It was coined in the U.S. from a letter the principle framer of the Constitution and Third President Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association assuring them that he would keep the Government out of the Church (NOT the Church out of the Government). The same time he wrote this letter, he presided as Superintendent of the school district of Washington, D.C. Can you guess what single textbook was required by him in every classroom in his district??? THE HOLY BIBLE!! President Jefferson wrote these words in 1781 that now appear on his memorial in Washington, D.C.: "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?" Good question, Pres. Jefferson! "

David Powell wrote on Dec 5, 2007 3:17 PM:

" TO CHRIS KING: The bible is full of passages that tell others to kill: false prophets, people in other cities, women, children, their own children, witches, fortunetellers, a child for striking a parent, Nonbelievers, people working on the sabbath . . . the list goes on. These killings aren't god striking down it says, for example, "Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death." (Exodus 31:12-15). Oh and how about this one "Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood" (Jeremiah 48:10). Not only does it give a person room but it the bible tells the person to do so. By the way Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Muslims view Moses as the first seal to the jews, jesus as the second seal to christains, and Muhammad as the third seal to muslims. They recognize the Koran and a continuation of the bible. Guess what, they are all the same religion with a different take on the same stories! Surprise! "

re Chris king wrote on Dec 5, 2007 1:44 PM:

" You, with your zealotry will generate the opposite of what you want. Do not thinik for a minute that fundamentalist christins do not contain the same possibilty of violence as fundamental Moslems, "

Sigh... wrote on Dec 5, 2007 1:27 PM:

" Here they go again, the morality twins - Chris King & Wakeup - clearly put on this earth for no other reason than to save the souls of the unworthy. Makes a person wonder how they can stand living amongst all of us common sinners, doesn't it? The two of you should find a nice deserted place where you and all your ilk can go to bible thump and scream halleluiah to your hearts content. I'll bet that Jonestown is still available.... Heck, you might even find a few unused Koolaid packages lying around if you look real hard! Why don't you give that some thought and give the rest of us a break! "

re:wakeup wrote on Dec 5, 2007 11:47 AM:

" I wish simply they would just remove you and your ilk. "

Wakeup! wrote on Dec 5, 2007 10:39 AM:

" Re: Deni...Please if you can convince the ACLU to stop "fighting" for me, do so! The ACLU is the primary group responsible for the move to take away any right to public expression of our faith. They are haters of God, and they are haters of anything that has to to with the recognition that all humans are inherently flawed, and therefore the answers do not lye within us, but within God's will! The ACLU is the primary group that is twisting the constitution by continuing to bring issues that should be solved by the people, via our legislature, to activist judges, that are now turning to international law, not the constitution to remove the rights of the faithful! Don't be blinded by their deceitful words. Actions of individuals and organizations have and always will speak louder than words! "

Chris King wrote on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 AM:

" "If we are careful the fanatacsim developing within the American christain ccommunity could generate religious warfare right here in river city.I yearn for the days of quit faithful people." Jesus has told us that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Simply being a Christian should encourage passion for His will. In fact, lukewarm Christians will be spewed out of His mouth! As for the warfare idea, we are not Muslim extremists, and we are not the Taliban. The Holy Bible leaves no room for us to act in such a manner. We can and will evangelize, talk, and use political means, but vengeance belongs to the Lord, and anyone that would take vengeance into their own hands would be acting on their own, not according to Jesus' teaching or scripture! Finally, pertaining to, I think you meant, quiet and faithful people...Christians being quiet is what has enabled this country to become the dysfunctional society that it is. We have learned our lessons, our silence was mistaken for weakness, and we will no longer stand by and not speak out against sinful behavior and injustice, especially for our brothers and sisters in Christ! "

MagickMom wrote on Dec 5, 2007 9:36 AM:

" Mr. Lee, the answer to your first question is NO, America is not and never has been a Christian Nation. America may have had a majority population that identified themselves as Christians, but America is a secular country founded by Deists to allow freedom of religion (or from) for all. Many holidays occur in and around the month of December and have come to be combined as the Winter Holiday Season or the Holiday Season. Some of the holidays include: Yule, the Winter Solstice, the Birth of the Invincible Sun, Epiphany, Hogmanay, New Years, Kwanza, Hanukkah, Saturnala, St. Nicholas Day, Boxing Day, Advent, St. Stephen's Day, Mithras, and Christmas. The celebration of the Birth of Christ was set on December 25th to play off of the "Birth of the Invincible Sun" and the other Pagan Midwinter celebrations. All of our Christmas traditions and symbols except for the manger scene (and according to some sources even it) are taken from Pagan celebrations. Like Journey said in his comments, I wish Christians Merry Christmas, Jews Happy Hanukka, Pagans Blessed Yule, or everyone just a Happy Holiday Season. I do wish everyone a Merry Christmas on Christmas Eve and Day the same as I wish everyone a Happy New Year on New Years Eve and Day. For the vast majority of Americans Christ is a small part of Christmas in their holiday celebrations. Blessed Be and Happy Holidays "

David Powell wrote on Dec 5, 2007 8:40 AM:

" To HISTORY LESSON TIME: Ok, lets use quotes from BENJAMIN FRANKLIN "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.", "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." Ok, now JOHN ADAMS ""As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - Dec. 27, 1816. Also, lets not forget that "One nation under god" was added during the red scare because Joseph McCarthy believed communists couldn't say god. The student has become the teacher "

GRRR! wrote on Dec 5, 2007 8:35 AM:

" Enough already! Don't any of you people have anything better to do? Live and let live. Worship in whatever manner you choose or not. Agree to disagree and move on! "

Religious Wars wrote on Dec 5, 2007 7:31 AM:

" If we are careful the fanatacsim developing within the American christain ccommunity could generate religious warfare right here in river city.I yearn for the days of quit faithful people. "

re:history lesson time wrote on Dec 5, 2007 5:50 AM:

" How many of these all knowing founding fathers used the bible tio justify slavery? "

History Lesson Time wrote on Dec 4, 2007 8:11 PM:

" Fisher Ames suggested the wording of the First Amendment to read as it is presently. He also wrote that the Bible should always remain the principle text book in America's classrooms. Fisher Ames was one of our founding fathers and the author of the first amendment. Governor Morris of Pennsylvania, the most active member of the constitutional convention, penned the constitution, he also advocated that "education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God." Heres some interesting qoutes from George Washington "You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." another Washington Quote "The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier" A qoute from Benjamin Franklin "History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." A qoute from John Quincy Adams "The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." A qoute of Samuel Adams " Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Hmmm? Interesting stuff wouldn't you all agree? also All our currency states "In GOD we trust" Our pledge of Allegence states One nation under GOD. Our National anthem was takin from a poem by Francis Scott Key "Defence of Fort McHenry" and joined with an old drinking song written by John Stafford Smith "The Anacreontic Song" originally 4 verses with the last as follows: O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand between their loved homes and the war’s desolation. Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the Heav’n-rescued land praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: "In God is our Trust." And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. "

Things don't always fit neatly wrote on Dec 4, 2007 6:47 PM:

" The problem as I see it is that too many people have fallen prey to the compartmentalized views of some group. Not all democrats and republicans think alike, different religious groups hold differing views, not all liberals or conservatives agree on many issues. But the groups we claim to belong to or represent us want to impose certain views on us on matters outside that groups fundamental purpose. Here's where the apples get mixed in with the oranges. We got to this point by groups trying to legislate morality, tolerance, and acceptance. We moved to legislating because we moved away from living and teaches these concepts. "

Whoa!!! wrote on Dec 4, 2007 6:25 PM:

" To: www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner /naming_names.htm Do you love anything? Someone had way too much time on their hands. "

Katmandu wrote on Dec 4, 2007 6:05 PM:

" To Wakeup, please get your head out of a Bible for a moment and read any reputable history book on the subject of "Christmas". The word may be from Christ's Mass but the date and the surrounding trappings are certainly from more diverse and ancient sources. I'm glad to live in a country where we can all worship or not as we choose. I'm glad we can even have this discussion. We're lucky, much of the world's populace can't do what we here are doing. I want to be able to sit with what family I have left and celebrate being together. That's something else that many people around the world cannot do. Their families have been separated by war or famine. Look folks, I don't care if you worship in any way this time of year or if you just gather together and party. Let's just remember that we are lucky to even be able to do so. People want to say "What would Jesus do?" He'd spend time with family and friends and go to Temple for Hanakuah. That's what Jesus would do. "

Deni wrote on Dec 4, 2007 4:51 PM:

" I suppose its just convenient to ignore all the work the ACLU has done for Christians. They defend people who are being denied their rights to practice their religion and that includes many cases involving Christian clients. As a matter of fact a whopping 70% of their cases deal with protecting the rights of the 3 major religions in this country. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. And trust me, you don't want them to stop fighting for you. "

Wakeup! wrote on Dec 4, 2007 1:21 PM:

" 10 dollars says that the good Rev. Chris Landon is the leader of a liberal, "main line" protestant denomination. Sir, do you adhere to the five solas? It would seem that the closer one gets to the roman catholic church the farther they get from the One, True God! Haw can anyone who claims a leadership role to God's people actually defend the ACLU. I pray that you are not one of those spineless, seeker-sensitive teachers/leaders that water down the true Gospel in order to make it more palatable for those with itching ears!....... 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. "

Rev. Chris Landon wrote on Dec 4, 2007 11:57 AM:

" Mr. Lee, as a pastor, I am concerned with the fear and anger displayed in your editorial. You write representing Christianity, yet you have born false witness. The ACLU IS the American Civil Liberties Union, which has protected the civil rights of people with unpopular causes of all kinds, even when it cost them the support of their own members. For example, the ACLU supported the right of Nazis to march in the largely Jewish suburb of Skokie. You seem unable to distinguish between the Classical Liberal who defends the Constitutional rights of everyone, with the truely radical who defend only their own rights. Perhaps your error is due to sloth, one of the seven deadly sins. You didn't check your facts. The Bible clearly states that you need two independent witnesses before making judgement. Here you needed to check the actual record of the ACLU, which defends AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES, regardless of the plaintiff's politics or religion. Perhaps it is due to pride, another deadly sin, which assumes that only you and those "on your side" could have any faith or charity. In either case more prayer is in order. Lastly, I see nowhere in your letter any practice or concern for Charity. It is the lack of actual care for the growing suffering of the poor -- for example, Katrina -- which is the GREATEST SCANDAL. Please reread Matthew 25 in entirety. I will pray for you. "

Observation wrote on Dec 4, 2007 11:44 AM:

" Considering the fact that millions of people came to 18th and 19th century America to escape religious persecution (and presumably stuck around and repopulated), as well as the popularity of the Freemasonry movement (which only requires the belief in a spiritual being; whether that being's name in thine eyes is God, Yahweh, Brett Favre, or Flying Spaghetti Monster is completely irrelevant) throughout this country's history, I have a hard time believing that this country's heritage as a whole has--or should have--anything to do with any religion. Because so many people from all over the globe have come to this country in the last 231 years, I have to think that this country's heritage is one of cultural diversity. This country is a melting pot, a bunch of varying ingredients thrown together to concoct something greater than the sum of its parts. It always has and always will be. And that's what makes it great. "

Chris King wrote on Dec 4, 2007 11:39 AM:

" "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Read these words carefully! I see nothing about "the wall of separation between church and state." However, I do see that congress is not to interfere with the free exercise of religion. Now, you tell me what does anybody displaying the Ten Commandments in any of the 50 STATES have anything to do with CONGRESS establishing a LAW pertaining to the ESTABLISHMENT of a religion. The "wall of separation" was alluded to in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, and the fact is that the letter was referring more to the state interfering with the free practice of religion. The 1st amendment was written to protect the churches from the Federal government, and the 1st amendment only applies to CONGRESS, not the individuals states. "

N wrote on Dec 4, 2007 11:25 AM:

" Christmas, in actuality, is a blending of many traditions. Most significantly pagan. Most credible scholars believe Jesus of Nazareth to have been born in the spring or summer. Christmas is a mix of several traditions, and it always has been. Why is it that we all have to agree on the "proper" way to celebrate it? Why can't we each just religiously do as we please, and wish the other blessings? No one need wear the persecution cloak here. Our American freedom is for every person, not merely the ones who fit within a specific confine. "

Laughing Sparrow wrote on Dec 4, 2007 11:20 AM:

" To all of you out there who think it's only immigrants who want the right to celebrate their winter holiday without having Christmas shoved down their throats, think again. See, I was born right here in the good ol' US of A and I'm proud of that fact. But I wish that you'd stop complaining because I don't want Christians to be able to throw stones at me. But that's the truly great thing about this nation. Despite what is the majority belief, we ALL have a right to our beliefs. Do you think that would be the way of it if this were a "Christian nation?" Do you really think that Christians would be happy in a Christian nation? Why do you think the first people came here? They didn't like the version of Christianity of their homeland. Do you think it would be any different here? You should be thankful that there are people like the ACLU (just to point it out again - the American Civil Liberties Union) are keeping anyone from having control over religion in this country. You may think you want a Christian nation, but think about why we're here. Trying going to north Ireland and living there for a little while and see how you like a Christian nation. "

David Powell wrote on Dec 4, 2007 10:45 AM:

" I would like to respond to CHRIS KING first: I would like to site the treaty of tripoli that was read, declared, and signed by Thomas Jefferson where article 11 says "The United States of America was not founded in anyway on a the Christian religion. Also, the "founding fathers" were not Christian. They were mason and universalists. That is, they believed that a higher power existed but they did not know what it was and understood that everyone is seeking a truth and has the right to do so. To the above writing: Let us not forget that the majority of christian based beliefs come from other religions. The Christmas tree is based off a druid belief that vials are thinner on the winter solstice and the easter bunny and the eggs are signs of fertility used by pagans during the spring solstice. Lets not forget the man who was the son of the supreme god, born december 25 to Mari (Mary), declared to save all man kind, had 12 deciples, was crucified in his mid thirties, was placed in a tomb covered by a bolder, rose 3 days later to his deciples, then went to the sky to be with his father and is expected to return to save man . . . btw his name is Horus an Egyptian god who existed 3000 years before the story of Jesus. How about the fact that all religions even those before abrahamic religions that tell a store of a great flood, of plagues, etc. The list goes on and on. Learn your religion and history of your world and quit being so blind. "

Yoda Morganstern wrote on Dec 4, 2007 9:35 AM:

" Our founding fathers specifically set up our nation with a secular government, guaranteeing freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Get over it. Worship away, but leave the rest of us alone, please. "

Margaret wrote on Dec 4, 2007 9:09 AM:

" "Christians" are destroying Christianity in this country. They are doing it all by themselves with help from no one else. I was raised Roman Catholic and am now a happy Wiccan and will stay one for the rest of my life. "

David wrote on Dec 4, 2007 8:08 AM:

" Reading the article of concern and the comments has proven to be a valuable exercise. Unsurprisingly, people from both sides of the fence have resorted to the kind of behavior which is best left on the playground. Something to bear in mind, however, is that “freedom” is ever-evolving and with that comes the appropriate growing pains. It also pays to bear in mind the saying, “A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular.” Case in point: my husband and I live in Massachusetts…the only state in this country where our marriage, a civil right, is recognized. Anywhere else in the country our marriage is null and void…all on sectarian religious grounds. Is that really freedom? How civil rights can be not only denied, but aggressively fought against…again on sectarian religious grounds…is simply unconscionable in a truly free society. Many conservatives have expressed the concern that they will somehow be forced to allow/perform same sex weddings in their churches if marriage equality becomes law. Two questions here: 1. How many clergy have been successfully sued on the grounds of refusing to perform a wedding ceremony which is in direct conflict with their religious views, for example, an interfaith wedding? 2. Why would a couple which has been treated so hatefully by so many churches seek to be wed in any of those churches? The bottom line is this: until all citizens in this country have the same rights and the same access to fair treatment under the law, “liberty and justice for all” is merely a nationalistic warm fuzzy phrase for the privileged. "

Informed wrote on Dec 4, 2007 12:25 AM:

" I honestly want to know where all these people keep coming up with the questionable statement that America was founded on Christian principles or was intended to be a Christian nation. Did any of you older people who took civic classes ever read the Constitution, the D of I, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, or even the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797? The latter, by the way, was published in no less than three well-known newspapers and openly declares that America was never founded as a Christian nation and never intended to become one. The most important of the founding fathers at the time were mostly livid at organized religion and happened to be Deist (as in believed in one Higher Power that they either called God or the Creator or the God of Nature). Go back beyond that to the time of the Puritans and be dismayed that holidays were not celebrated, only solemnly revered. One would be fined and stigmatized severely for decking their homes with holiday decor. The major holidays we celebrate in America were revived during the mid to late Victorian era, and were heavily romanticized. From there, they have been pounded out, commercialized, and secularized to the point of complete sterility. Besides, how do you not account for this? "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." [Matthew 6:5-6] I very much doubt that Jesus would tell you to spite your neighbor and waste money and electricity by forcing the local governments to hang gaudy Christmas lights and giant Christian oversized plastic decorations and no decorations of any other religion to make your non-Christian neighbors feel alienated by their own local government and the Christian majority from the community. It isn't about political correctness or radical left-wing liberalism, it's about loving your neighbor and allowing your government to obey the Constitution and the intentions of our founding fathers. Instead of dividing your commmunity, why don't you welcome the Jew, the Wiccan, the atheist, the Buddhist, the Muslim, the Hindu, and everyone else to enjoy the 3 month period of time when most religions and secular governments participate in holidays and festivals? Why not love all your neighbors, even the Satanist ones, and help provide a unifying service to the community? Why not have the local governments use donated holiday decoration money to be spent on things like ...oh, I dunno... soup kitchens or helping the poor and needy, or have them use the electricity that powers those Christmas lights to be put to better use, such as helping needy people in poverty who can't afford to pay their electric bills? Or you could spite your neighbor, shout from the hilltops, be a hypocrite, strong-arm the local government into doing something unconstitutional, spite your community, forget about the poor and needy, and be completely self-centered and bigoted... just to have your hollow plastic Jesus nativity and some gaudy lights hanging from naked trees. "

Mysteries' Child wrote on Dec 4, 2007 12:18 AM:

" Your heritage is slipping away?? It may be-- and I think that's sad. Everyone should have the right to honor their heritage, whether in their heart or on their sleeve. 'Everyone,' however, means EVERYONE. Not just stereotypical 'American' Christian conservatives. Our great country is, and always has been, a land of many cultures. I look forward to a day when, say, a cashier can wish me a "Merry Christmas," and I can smile and respond with "Thank you, and Blessed Solstice," and neither of us will have to fear reprisal. Unfortunately, as long as we're going back and forth howling about being persecuted because our respective points of view can't be the ONLY point of view, that day will never come. "

A. Bork wrote on Dec 3, 2007 11:19 PM:

" So, the U.S. is losing its "Christian heritage"? Just when was the U.S. a Christian nation at all? Was it before or after the Revolution which actually FORMED the U.S., a revolution which was led by Deists -- not Christians? Strange that in every book of U.S. History I have ever read (and I have read many), I never see anything written about the U.S. being declared as a "Christian Nation"..... Some people complain -- loudly -- about immigrants coming here and "ruining" the "great culture" of the U.S. .... Seems to me that every White person in the entire Western Hemishpere is descended from those "evil immigrant people". If the real Natives of this continent had not allowed your ancestors to stay all those hundreds of years ago, YOU might not even be here today. The real Natives were ALWAYS repaid, by the U.S., for their kindnesses and aid to the immigrants (oh, sorry - "Colonists") in the same way everyone else is now repaid for their kindnesses and aid to the U.S.: THEY WERE MURDERED AND SWINDLED BY THE AMERICANS!! Now, would Jesus have raped and murdered people just to get their land and wealth? If not, how can anyone who would do that possibly call themself a "Christian" -- and how could the U.S. have been a "Christian Nation"? "

Doc wrote on Dec 3, 2007 6:00 PM:

" Yet more irrational nonsense from the right wing loonies. My dear Mr. Lee, it is obvious you've been drinking the Kool-Aid from Karl's Kool-Aid Kitchen. The first hint is your inability to correctly name one of the two major political parties in the USA. It is the "democratic" party, NOT the "democrat" party. Such mistakes identify you as a regular viewer of Fox "News", something which no sensible person wishes. I hope you noted the plight of the British schoolteacher in the Sudan who was recently jailed for allowing her students to name a Teddy bear "Mohammed". Many people demonstrated in the streets to have her jail sentence put aside and have her executed instead. This is the sort of thing we can all expect from fundamentalism and yet you propose more of it. Bloody brilliant. Your monolithic ignorance tempts me to continue but I do not have time to correct all of the many faults in your reasoning or in your pathetic little article. I'll merely close with a quote from George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion". Please, cease watching Fox "News" and join the rest of us in the reality-based community. "

Wakeup! wrote on Dec 3, 2007 4:01 PM:

" It is C H R I T MAS! If you don't want to believe or follow Jesus, than don't celebrate the holiday! Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, and the reason his birth is celebrated is because he is the savior of the world. Therefore, if you deny his deity you have no reason to celebrate his birth! Those of you that are not Christians, yet celebrating Jesus' birth are contradicting themselves. It works like this...I love spending time with my family, and I really love getting lots of free stuff, so I will hijack the Lord's birthday for my own, self-centered gains. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. "

Draken wrote on Dec 3, 2007 3:56 PM:

" If the US is a "christian nation" like this rube suggests, why is there no "Church of America?" Some idiots need to review the facts and get them straight. "

Christopher Bingham, Snohomish, WA wrote on Dec 3, 2007 3:42 PM:

" You've got 350,000 xtian churches in America, you had all three branches of government for 6 years, in spite of the clear prohibition against religious tests for office, an atheist couldn't get elected if he WAS Jesus and you're WHINING about xtianity disappearing? PUH LEAZE. You guys are like the school yard bully who cries when his victim manages to hide 10% of his lunch money. The only thing hurting Christianity today is the insanity of it's loudest supporters. What kind of person with ANY set of morals would want to associate with the likes of Bush, Cheney, Al "waterboarding is not torture" Gonzales? If 5% of the population is waking up to the moral bancruptcy and evolutionary dead of contemporary American xtianity then you still have 80% of the population, regardless of political affilation who still call themselves xtian. Stop WHINING. You only live up to the stereotype and give the rest of us joke fodder. "

Dennis Deal wrote on Dec 3, 2007 3:24 PM:

" Lazarus as usual with conservatives you missed the point and proved why christianity and the current administration is corrupt and would be impeachable. You asked which set of rules that Micheal would teach? Well I can't answer for him, but I will give you my answer. I will teach my children to think for themselves. I will teach them that all religions have a small truth to them. Faith is valid only when backed by action. 1940's and 1950's are over we are moving in a world that jesus couldn't imagine when he set out to reform a religion. Our country has become more than what the founding fathers could comprehend. Yes, we are still trying to apply what they wrote two hundred years ago. Maybe we are not applying the Constitution as they may have wished or could have forseen. But at the very least there is still an effort to apply the Constitution in a meaningful way. On that note I think that would satisfy even John Adams. "

Nagash wrote on Dec 3, 2007 1:49 PM:

" Yes, America's Christian heritage is slipping away.... And none too soon. Fundamentalism is a disease, and should be treated as such... There may be a chance for humanity, after all.... There may be those whom shed tears when false tale of "America as a Christian Nation" finally dies its last, gasping, labored breath... But I shall not be one of them..... "

Chiyo wrote on Dec 3, 2007 1:38 PM:

" I was born to an Anglican priest and to a strict German-Catholic mother, raised in his church and in her catholic schools, before choosing to go to seminary myself for 5 years. After Sept. 11th, and during these last years of Culture War in the USA, I really woke up to the violence in the Bible. www.evilbible.com Now it is my opinion, if America is truly losing its Christian heritage, we are all better off. And all I can do is breathe a sigh of relief! "

Greg wrote on Dec 3, 2007 1:15 PM:

" The difference comes in each celebrating their own way. Nothing in the governments says it has to be the Christian way, its a matter of choice, and the problem is that people who are NOT Christian, no longer want to be told that you have to celebrate it a particular way. Thats why we have toleration for one another. thats why we celebrate in different ways. And thats why The "Christmas" is being dropped off of the "Christmas" tree. Do you think Jesus would celebrate with a tree? Do you think the king of the jews would want you to buy him gifts from Wal-Mart made with near slave labor in China? Give me a break, and look beyond the selfish mentality of I want and like it this way, and try to look at the essence of the thing itself. The yule, solstice, miraculous birth, is the reason we celebrate, does it matter what we call it? Traditions change, especially as the people celebrating them change. i am curious though, what do you mean by: "My opinion is: unless conservatives, churches and our conservative congressmen start taking a more active role by standing up, speaking out and fighting back, this great country of ours is really going to get messy. The least I think we can do is support many of the good conservative organizations out there beating the bushes fighting for our conservative survival. It’s a tough fight." What does step up mean, and what does fighting back mean? Doesn't it come down to a vote? What exactly does conservative mean, especially when it comes to telling someone what they can, or cannot, do? http://www.freemasoninformation.com">Freemason Information "

zillah wrote on Dec 3, 2007 1:14 PM:

" The only people who thought the 50s were the 'good ol' days' were rich white men. "

to Moral? wrote on Dec 3, 2007 12:36 PM:

" What are you ranting about? Just because someone professes that they believe in Jesus Christ, You stereotype them as haters against all others. You are one that is spreading hatred by doing such. I am a christian and I love everybody. I may not like what some people do, but I dont hate them. I don't hate gay people but, I am not gay. I dont hate muslims yet I am not muslim and I will not try to push my beliefs onto anyone that does not want to listen. I will plant a seed and tell people what I believe but, if it's not for them, I don't hate them and I wont press the issue or look upon them as BAD or any less of a person than I am. In all honesty, I don't particularily like what you represent here but, I dont hate you for it. You could be my brother, my sister, my mom or my dad and it's your right to give your opinion. BUT when you come on these boards just to slam people for what they believe in and interject your smug attitude while calling others smug. Isn't that like very ironic? re-read what you read and think about this. When I read your comments I thought to myself. hmmmm? heres someone with a smug attitude acting like they are superior to everyone and spreading hatred. perhaps I will pray for them. God Loves You. Have a nice day "

Jerry wrote on Dec 3, 2007 11:46 AM:

" Dear Mr. Lee: Actually, when you were growing up in the 1940s, a purported "Christian" group was already busy laying the legal groundwork for the downfall of the Christian ideals that you value. The following website summarizes over 285 lawsuits involving Jehovah's Witness Employees, including many where they sued their Employers over the issue of Christmas and other Holidays, and won large $$$ judgments: EMPLOYMENT ISSUES UNIQUE TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESS EMPLOYEES (Google for link.) Here is a second website that summarizes over 315 U.S. court cases and lawsuits affecting children of Jehovah's Witness Parents, including 150+ cases where the JW Parents refused to consent to life-saving blood transfusions for their dying children: DIVORCE, BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS, AND OTHER LEGAL ISSUES AFFECTING CHILDREN OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES (Google for link.) SORRY, BUT THE UNITED STATES THAT YOU SO FONDLY RECALL HAS ALREADY DISAPPEARED. "

Marissa wrote on Dec 3, 2007 11:06 AM:

" "America is no longer America, but a hotel of sorts that the natives are now the minority." Excuse me, but we killed and/or pushed away the NATIVES of this nation over two hundred years ago. We're all visitors and immigrants in a very young country, with different viewpoints and ways of life. And as long as they remain legal, we have the right to live our lives how we please. You can dis on incoming immigrants and migrant workers as much as you like, as long as you don't go out and beat one up. This nation was founded, admittedly, on Christian-ish ideals, though our founding fathers never displayed the radical blind faith that I see around me in those who want to revive the "Christian Nation". They were men of reason who just happened to believe in a Christian God. Also, they came up with freedom of religion, speech, and such all on their own, due to the persecution all sorts of people faced in England. They had the foresight and the experience to know how horribly the government can strip people of their freedom and lifestyle. You can lament the loss of a Christan nation, you can try and bring that back in your own life and those with whom you associate and agree with. But you cannot interfere with the equally-valid viewpoints of others. If there's no more "Christmas" in front of tree, that's fine. It's just a fake tree, anyway. What makes it a Christmas tree, or any other holiday tree, is the meaning put into it. Any Christian looking at it will know it's a Christmas tree; heck, many secular celebrators will recognize it as a Christmas tree, too. The Christian nation is not gone, my friend. We are merely trying to live up to "Peace on Earth, and Goodwill toward [Mankind]." "

Robert wrote on Dec 3, 2007 10:45 AM:

" Why are Christian conservatives so intolerant? There is only one message worth remembering in all of the scriptural writings. The God of the New Law is a God of Love. Jesus came to humanity as God Incarnate and lived on this earth to teach love. Everything else is only commentary. The United States is a microcosm of the universe; and its people are but a sample of the whole of humanity. If christianity is to survive many more generations, it must stop placing itself above the message. It should become the message. Please stop this incessant human urge to feel you must be competitive in the world of faith. Rather, try to feel spiritual, or metaphysical; as did the Son of God. You will then be amazed at how much love you can find even among those who follow a different path than you. Such is the only truth in holiness. "

I've had enough American Theocracy for the past 7 years... wrote on Dec 3, 2007 10:26 AM:

" Ron, evidentially the past 7 years of a Christian ruled white house, 12 years of a Christian ruled house of representatives and 2 years of a Christian ruled Senate wasn’t conservative enough for you. I can feel your frustration at the centrists voting the conservatives out because of they are sick of the republican hypocrisy and corruption. Don’t worry the pendulum will swing the other way eventually, but I’m hoping for a good steady 8 years of a Democratic president to try to roll back all the totalitarian/ authoritarian pseudo-arab state “reforms” I’ve seen come out of this government as of late. Yes, we can all breathe more freely now that the Christian “Taliban” controlled while house will go out the window in 2008. The only thing I fear now is that another “reichstag fire” will happen strategically placed around next years elections to cement the demise of our American Democracy. Goddess bless! Spatch3 "

Another voice wrote on Dec 3, 2007 9:35 AM:

" Well, if you really want to know what I think. The government of the United States is governed by the Constitution as the supreme law of the land, not the Christian Bible. We have a secular government in this country, not a theocracy like the Taliban. There is seperation of church and state in this country. And that is a good thing. It protects the churchs from government interference. Christianity may be the religion of the majority in this country now, but what if like in Europe, the Muslim population should ever (as a result of having a higher birth rate) come to have a majority. Without seperation of church and state, Christianity could be banned. In the Treaty Of Tripoli (1796) (note that under the Constitution a treaty has the same effect as part of the supreme law of the land as the Constitution itself), which was ratified unanimously by the Senate and signed by then-President John Adams, it states that "The United States are not in any sense a Christian nation." Case closed. "

Thinker wrote on Dec 3, 2007 9:14 AM:

" For an essay purporting to address the question of America's "Christian Heritage" you seem to spend an excessive amount of time bad-mouthing anyone and anything with whom you don't agree. And even that is done quite poorly - what exactly is the "ALCU", anyway? The "Civil Liberties Union" you mention immediately after is actually the American Civil Liberties Union, or the ACLU. Thorough research and proofreading are your friends, Mr. Lee. But to bring you back to your topic point, that of America's Christian Heritage - again, I recommend thorough research. The Declaration of Independence makes reference to "our Creator", "Nature's God" and the "Supreme Judge". Nothing more specific than that. No God of Israel, no Jehovah, Yahweh, or Jesus Christ. Which is why ACCURATE historians refer to our founders as 'deists" - believers in a supreme creator without specifying any of the denominational or dogmatic constraints. Those choices are left up to the individual, and codified in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". I trust that you will find that phrase self-explanatory. And furthermore, I challenge you to find any reference to God in the U.S. Constitution. Those documents should be adequate in and of themselves in reference to any questions about America's fictitious Christian heritage. But if additional support is needed I refer you to the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, which was approved by George Washington at the end of his presidential term and ratified during the administration of John Adams. The 11th Article of the Treaty states: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Mr. Lee, you state that "I feel our Constitution, 1st Amendment rights, Separation of Church and State are being so warped out of shape to mean whatever they want it to mean". The statement that the Government "is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" means exactly what it says - and are you going to argue that Washington and Adams cannot be considered among our founders? I should think that this resolves your question about "America's Christian heritage slipping away". It was never there to begin with. "

Journey wrote on Dec 3, 2007 8:59 AM:

" I will not wish a Merry anything specific to a complete stranger. I'll say Merry Christmas to a Christian; Happy Hanukkah to a Jew; Blessed Yule to a Pagan. Regardless of what a I believe I'll respect their beliefs. Since I don't know the faith of complete strangers, they get a Happy Holidays. I would not force them to listen to the greeting of my faith. "

Wakeup! wrote on Dec 3, 2007 8:53 AM:

" "Dear God, Protect me from the Christians whose core beliefs these days is to hate gays, immigrants, scientific research, and peace in Iraq..." We don't hate gay people. We hate homosexuality. We don't hate immigrants. We simply do not feel that those that come to this country ILLEGALLY should be granted special entitlements. We don't hate scientific research. We just don't like dogmatic adherence to scientific THEORY. If science can't figure out whether butter is good for us, how can we expect it to find the answers to the beginning of the universe? Finally, is it accurate to say that we hate peace in Iraq? I'm not even going to counter that one, it's just an idiotic statement! With statements like yours, I can't believe we Christians are considered extreme! "

Rutilus Draconis wrote on Dec 3, 2007 8:52 AM:

" America never really had a xian heritage Ben Franklin called the bible "that damned able book". This country was founded by people of different faiths some long before the Europeans came. I read some of these comments and some of you are relatively open minded but there are the few with narrow minds that claim God hates everybody not like them. Well unless God comes down and actually talks to you how do you know what God wants. These are the people dividing this country with their hatred they are no different than the taliban and just as evil "

Tom wrote on Dec 3, 2007 8:50 AM:

" It is all well and good that you have this belief and perception that the Founding Fathers wished to establish a Christian Nation, or wanted this to be a Christian Nation. However I would like to point out that no where in the Constitution of the United States or in the Bill of Rights or any Amendment to the Constitution is it mentioned that the United States is a Christian Nation. Any one alive in present times can interpret what ever they would like about the intent of the founding fathers but the fact remains that the system of government they put in place, and the subsequent rights guaranteed in the supreme law of the land which is the Constitution, do not state or show any intent that this nation was to be a Christian Nation. Thomas Jefferson was an avid scholar and collector of many books from around the world. One of his books was the Holy Koran of the Muslim Faith. What would a alleged devout Christian man that allegedly wanted to establish a Christian Nation on the teachings of Jesus Christ be doing with such a book? The answer to that question is simple. Thomas Jefferson did not intend to establish a Christian Nation, nor did the other founding fathers. They were men of reason, men of foresight. They saw in their day the results of a government corrupted and empowered to impose its will on its subjects and they did not want that for this nation. They wrote the Constitution the way they did to allow for diversity, to allow for free thought and open discourse among civilized people. Do I agree with liberals who get mad at someone who offers a heartfelt Merry Christmas in passing? No I don't. Do I agree with conservatives who stump against liberals who prefer a Happy Holidays? No I don't. America was founded on the idea of tolerance of other views. Before we start rallying for hardline change on either side of the spectrum, let us take a step back and consider what our Constitution actually says versus what we as individuals would rather it say based on our personal belief. "

county girl wrote on Dec 3, 2007 7:22 AM:

" America was founded on the scientific Enlightenment values of the 18th century, and saw itself as the inheritor of ancient Greek (pagan) democracy. By law we are a secular nation, in order to guarantee legal equality for all religions. The Founding Fathers did not want a repeat of our colonial banishings and executions for religious heresy (Baptists, Quakers, Jews) or a repeat of colonial witch panics. Do you understand that there is a difference between "secular law" and "atheism"? Are you capable of stepping outside of your own comfortable point of view? Do you understand that the Puritans outlawed the celebration of Christmas, on the basis that it was "Papist" [catholic] and "Pagan"? "

Assaji wrote on Dec 2, 2007 11:51 PM:

" I love Jesus but God, I simply can't stand Christians. "

Danny Haszard wrote on Dec 2, 2007 9:54 PM:

" This is probably what makes the Jehovah's witnesses religion so controversial in that they: PROMISE YOU YOUR REWARD IN THE HERE AND NOW. Like holding out the proverbial carrot to the donkey the watchtower promises it's followers an impending new system paradise coming any minute you won't grow old you won't need to save for old age retirement. The other religions have the good sense to promise you your reward AFTER YOU DIE and nobody has ever come back from the dead and sued for breach of promise. When the watchtower is made to be held accountable for their false promises and defaults thay just go and disfellowship (kick out) those who dissent.Religions can get away with this any secular business that did this would get their leaders put in jail for fraud.The Watchtower religion has busted a million followers and there are lots of angry ex members who won't go quietly. It's FRAUD for GOD Thanks for letting me share this,Danny Haszard http://www.dannyhaszard.com "

Rayilyn Brown wrote on Dec 2, 2007 8:51 PM:

" I challenge all "Christians" who claim this country was founded on "Christian" biblical principles. Where do you find federalism, balance of power, checks and balances, due process, habeous corpus, warrants for search and seizure either in the Bible or in the Christian religion? I have read every mind-numbing word of the begattings, temple features and animal sacrifice instructions of the OT and the virgin birth, resurrection and miracles of the NT and they are nowhere to be found in our Constitution. I suggest you read both the Constitution and the bible. "

Another Bob wrote on Dec 2, 2007 7:00 PM:

" Ron, Could this really be you:THE TROUBLE WITH THE ENTIRE WORLD IS A GUY NAMED RON" http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/14/1190/ Maybe if you continue writing such enlightening columns, we might get a sequel: "THE TROUBLE WITH THE ENTIRE WORLD IS A GUY NAMD RON 2" "

WWRJD? (What Would Republican Jesus Do?) wrote on Dec 2, 2007 6:31 PM:

" http://www.djarkady.com/public/img/blog/wwrjd.jpg "

Josh wrote on Dec 2, 2007 6:07 PM:

" Christ. Look to him, and don't rush to condemn others. Act as Christ with all your might, and even though failure is assured, you will shine to unbelievers. Act with hate, and you will drive the lost away. Obama is a Christian. Our job, as Christians, is to convince him that abortion is wrong. Our job as Christians is NOT to say, "To be a good Christian you should be against NAFTA, and Republican. If you are against those you will go to hell." Christ is more than those, and we all fall short. "

Study: Christianity No Longer Looks Like Jesus wrote on Dec 2, 2007 5:08 PM:

" http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070925/29448_Study:_Christianity_No_Longer_Looks_Like_Jesus.htm "

moral? wrote on Dec 2, 2007 2:29 PM:

" I guess if you were raised in a muslim house or lutheran or anything else was not quite as moral as a christian house hold. Thats the smug attitude that people think of catholics. Oh and also that thing about boys and priests also come to mind. you and your religion live in not a glass house but a paper house and you throw a lot of stones. We had a saying, You can dish it but cant take it when it comes to reality about your religion and where this country is going. you want to go back to Eden or the 50's i guess where everything was perfect in these United states. Not like now where everyone is immoral. Right get a life you right wing religious zellots. "

I can only hope wrote on Dec 2, 2007 11:31 AM:

" I can pnly hope that the christians who frequent this board are a very small minority. Too me they do not remotely represent what Jesus taught. "

From: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/naming_names.htm wrote on Dec 2, 2007 11:26 AM:

" I hate damnable heresies, but I love people. I hate the Jehovah Witnesses' religion with all my heart, but I love lost sinners who are in need of Christ. I hate gambling! I hate abortion! I hate cigarette smoking that put my mother in a wheelchair at age 53 for the rest of her life! I hate the lies of government! I hate the evil Federal Reserve system! I hate the injustice of Enron! I hate the injustice of the Supreme Court! I hate Hollywood! I hate homosexuality! I hate child abuse! I hate divorce! I hate the demonic public school system! I hate the Social Security scam! I hate the stealing of tax-payer's money by the government! I hate the killing of innocent people in Iraq! I hate the New World Order! I hate Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove and every other Satanic organization on the planet! I hate Wicca and Freemasonry! I hate witchcraft! I hate Harry Potter! I hate horoscopes, astrology, tarot cards, Ouija boards, séances, psychics, palm reading, crystal balls, necromancy, worshipping the dead and the Virgin Mary of the Catholic false Religion. I hate Islam! I hate Buddhism! I hate Scientology! I hate Mormonism! I hate Atheism! I hate rock and roll! I hate soap operas! I hate the devils' music! I hate pornography! I hate sex tourism! I hate the United nations! I hate population control, sterilization and forced abortions. I hate the rigged, corrupt and godless pharmaceutical industry! I hate recited prayers that aren't from the heart! I hate indifference! I hate apathy! I hate the heresy of baptismal regeneration! I hate communism! I hate feminism! I hate sex-changes! I hate false Bibles! I hate the New International Version of the Bible! I hate to watch millions of people starve to death while Americans spend $280,000,000,000 to destroy a sovereign nation in an illegal war against Iraq! I hate the hypocrisy of America! I hate the selfishness of American corporations and the betrayal of our elected officials by allowing America's manufacturing jobs to flee by the tens-of-millions to third-world countries to exploit the poor! Yes, I hate all these things and a whole lot more. By the way, God hates all these things too. I know so because God hates evil and all of the above things I mentioned are EVIL! "

Brian wrote on Dec 1, 2007 1:17 PM:

" Dear God, Protect me from the Christians whose core beliefs these days is to hate gays, immigrants, scientific research, and peace in Iraq. If that meands that America is less a Chrsitian country, then thank you Lord. "

DP wrote on Nov 30, 2007 8:31 PM:

" Thank you for writing this column. I believe that we are analogous in thought. I couldn't have written it any better myself. I also consider myself a Conservative Christian. I am a little bit younger than you being that I grew up in the 60s and 70s. I was raised in a Christian home with moral, social, and cultural values. I actually think that the issues that now surround us (i.e. the creationism rulings, no prayer in schools, wanting to take GOD out of our pledge of allegiance, the move to change our constitution and bill of rights, etc.) are just signs of the times. I also believe that the scriptures give light to all that is going on around us. Christians are being persecuted, as predicted in the Bible, more and more each day. This doesn’t shock me at all. I just accept it as part of the prophecies coming to fruition. On a side note to Chris King. Don’t be disheartened. The way you get attacked on these blogs just goes to show everybody exactly what it is that I am speaking of. (Persecution) Mark 13:13 "

Nathan Davis wrote on Nov 30, 2007 6:34 PM:

" As a Christian and registered independent, I have been sick at heart for the last seven years. College professors have done much less damage to the morality of this country than the politicians who credit their success to the church. I was aware of some of the equivocations of George W. Bush during the 2000 campaign, but I looked the other way because I believed that all candidate exaggerrated; however, those candidates did not claim Christ as their favorite philosopher. As the incidents of false witness increased (aluminum tubes, wiretaps with court orders, briefings on Katrina), I can come to no other conclusions than A) the president has borne false witness on a regular basis and B) he has done so with the consent of his party in Congress. I will probably vote for Barack Obama because he seems to tell the truth and when a president in his party bore false witness, many Democrats in Congress voted for impeachment. "

Lazarus wrote on Nov 30, 2007 11:09 AM:

" Michael, conservatives CAN comprehend change. The concern is what we as a nation and a people are changing into. You say that being religious is "dishonest" and imply that by thinking conservatively rules are being held over your head; but that you "dared" to ask why?! Yes, maybe there are some rules we should follow: Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not commit adultery; etc. Not really terrible rules to follow are they? I hope you continue to "ask why" about the new rules being held over our heads: "Hate"(thought)-crimes; politically-correct "offenses"; the sexualization of our kids - and on a related note - homosexual "acceptance" training to kids as early as kindergarten(who shouldn't even have to think about such things at those ages); the criminalization of Christianity; etc. The "old rules" condone morality; the "new rules" condone immorality. Ask yourself which set of rules you would rather teach your children. "

Ray Ingles wrote on Nov 30, 2007 10:27 AM:

" Um, just in point of fact, the most recent ruling regarding "intelligent design" - that it was repackaged creationism and all that - was by a Republican judge appointed by President George W. Bush. "

Michael wrote on Nov 30, 2007 4:16 AM:

" Well, as a liberal I can say that the government I want to see is a government that represents us, all of us. Not just those who espouse a certain belief, or have sex in a particular way or have a minimum amount of money, but EVERYONE. My opinion of conservatives is that they generally want things to be the way they remember them. They usually have a hard time comprehending the fact that in order for things to be the way they remember them, something had to change to make them that way. People and societies are not static things. Static societies become stagnant societies and wither away. You know those golden days in the 40s and 50s? They were an era of uncommon liberalism in America, where unions were strong advocates of worker rights and the government was held accountable for its actions. It took a lot of hard work to progress to the point where the common man could live the American dream. So what's happening to our Christian heritage? We had a remarkably prosperous generation send their children to school to learn and become even more successful. The thing is, education is subversive. There's a reason that the majority of academia tends to be liberal, because education tends to open people's minds. They learn how to question their surroundings and engage in critical thinking. The scientists in particular learn to test their ideas and verify the results before announcing conclusions. This sort of attitude is bad for religion in general. Critical thinking is anathema to blind faith. So yes, people start questioning the origins of traditional holidays like Halloween, Christmas and Easter. At first they were shocked to rediscover that each of these holidays were pagan in origin, and were coopted by the Christian Church in order to assimilate the people they conquered. Then, as they learned more about it, they started questioning the fundamentals of the entire religion and found it wanting. Naturally, the conservatives are freaked. You DON'T question their religion. You just DON'T. Don't ask why. That's why I'm not a conservative any longer, in spite of my upbringing. I dared to ask why, and I've never been able to go back. I can't bear to be that dishonest with myself. "

Tim Behrend wrote on Nov 30, 2007 2:58 AM:

" Neither America's Christian heritage, nor any other cultural matter, is governed by the Constitution. Don't forget that everything you believe is bound to be rejected by many fellow Americans who love the U.S.A. just as much as you. Your version of the ideal America is great; you are free to pursue it in any and every legal way. But the same is true of your bitterest cultural enemy. As a conservative, your impulse is to conserve or preserve things as you know them. While this is precisely the opposite of what the Founding Fathers were about (they weren't just liberals, they were revolutionaries who took up arms against the government of the day), nevertheless, the legal foundation for the nation that they established will protect your right to think and act as a conservative. But it shouldn't promote your views over those of any other Americans. If you don't understand this, many would consider you fundamentally ignorant of, or opposed to, the true meaning of America. Dream on about the way you understood the 'America' 60 years ago. The Constitution guarantees you that right. But it denies you the right to impose your beliefs, your version of 'America', on your fellow citizens. "

Scott M. wrote on Nov 29, 2007 5:34 PM:

" Ron, If you publish your e-mail, I'll be happy to correspond with you from the liberal atheist view point. Scott M. "

a. mcewen wrote on Nov 29, 2007 4:56 PM:

" okay, when exactly did Ted Kennedy call parts of the Bible hate speech? Or is that something this author picked up from World Net Daily? "

Well, nothing to say at first leads to something.... wrote on Nov 29, 2007 12:40 PM:

" I think you are the only person who can write an essay in this sometimes small minded town, and make sense to everyone here. Christmas is 'holiday season' now so we don't offend the other religions here, who cares about the Christians? America is no longer America, but a hotel of sorts that the natives are now the minority. Americans are being taught how many other languages now because we don't want to offend the people who come to OUR country by wanting them to speak English. Welcome to America, we speak Spanish! English is a secondary language now. Everyone has gotten so sue happy that we're afraid to breathe after eating an onion for fear of offending someone with our bad breath then having to pay them thousands of dollars for emotional distress. We are going to destroy ourselves for being too welcoming into our country, and it's a classic 'Give an inch, they'll take a mile.' 'Free for All' has now become 'Free for Visitors' "

Chris King wrote on Nov 29, 2007 12:31 PM:

" Thank you Mr. Lee for writing this letter. I would bet that most readers are not aware of the FACT that both the founders of the ACLU and the NEA (National Education Association), the countries largest teachers' union were founded by Communists! Yes, it's true, the people that want to control every aspect of what your children are taught and the people that are working to eliminate our right to express our faith, primarily Christian faith, adhere to Communist ideals. This is a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles, by Christian men. When I was in school, we were taught that the Pilgrims came to North America to escape religious persecution, and we were taught that evolution is a theory. Why are groups like the NEA and the ACLU so afraid of our heritage? This nation got to be the greatest nation ever founded by adhering to our original character, but now that we have begun to abandon our founding principles, just look where our country has gone. Please, I urge everyone to recognize how the media, our schools, and our courts are all perpetuating the very things that will lead to the downfall of this nation. Our sovereignty, our freedom, and our very existence is in jeopardy. Please America and Tomah, WAKEUP! "

Max wrote on Nov 29, 2007 12:11 PM:

" Religions cause many more problems than it solves. Western culture had never replaced God with anything to believe in. Our culture stands on shoddy ground because it does not believe in anything besides immediate gratification and hedonism. Sure there are christians and other religions, but when it comes down to it--nihilism rules the US. "

Hey wrote on Nov 29, 2007 11:30 AM:

" I like what you have to say, but I also don't like the republicans calling the rich their base, having the income gap grow and the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, war, the death penalty, and the fraud I've seen in the Republican party. To me, both parties have flaws when it comes to Christian ideology. This country has changed. Christmas wasn't even celebrated in certain parts of colonial America because it is Catholic in origin. I think we've grown up and gotten past the nitpicking. Educated Christians seem much more cordial to eachother now...and the country seems more cordial to other, non-Christian beliefs. To me, that's all part of living in America. "


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